A Doberman’s ears are generally cropped when the dog is between 7 and 9 weeks old. Or shall I crop? All of the breeds that he produced are possible because an enormous number of repeated sequences in the canine DNA. The procedure is most often performed on Doberman puppies at around 8 to 12 weeks of age. Commitment is a struggle most days. I think people just like to bitch about something..and today its ear cropping. Are the dobies ears supposed to stand up 24-7? Cropping a Doberman’s ears is not only an unnecessary procedure, but it is actually hazardous to your pet’s health. She is on Taste of the Wild, pacific stream salmon blend. Splints to shaped ears are used now. You show a medium crop which is show and guard. Less is more for the PRESERVATION of the doberman! The ears are then taped to a hard surface for several weeks while they heal. They couldnt show her cause one ear kept falling forward. During surgery, the outside part of the ears are trimmed and the edges are sutured. I was shocked the first time I saw him and the “rawness” of his ears, and eventhough he was extremely happy to see us, he was deffinitely experiencing pain and extreme itchyness. I understand it puts your dog at a great disadvantage for conformation. on our other puppy it was almost two weeks after surgery before we started taping. Can anyone give me any insight on this, as in opinions, potential warnings or problems, etc. Get over it. which I don’t agree with because it is ONLY for aesthetics unlike a doberman where docking the tail helps prevent it from being injured as they are prone to breaking. He’s gets positive attention every where I take him. I got my pup’s ears cropped at 10 th week and removed stitches after 10 days.Before removing the stitches I had taped both ears together and made them stand erect for 3 or 4 days.When the vet removed the stitches the ears were already standing erect! I am leaving my girl the way she was born, shame I didn’t get to the breeder before he cut her tail. The ears feel warmer than normal. Ears are generally resplinted every week for 4-6 weeks. I totally agree with you! He wasn’t going to be in any competitions so I thought it was an unnecessary procedure. yes too late, enjoy your natural ear dobe , i just got my dobie ears cropped and the vet told me that he wanted to let the ears heal for 10 days befor he tapes them up i just wanted to know if it would be fine like that without any problem for the pup ears to stand up . 2. Beautiful pointy ears. PLEASE HELP ME PLEASE! This breed is not overly susceptible to ear infections or hearing loss. As how long the taping will last its going to vary by dog and with some they’ll never stand. Luckily, I have choesen a very experienced and awesome Vet that I can trust. Loss and go somewhere else??? He had prescription tranqulizers though that kept him knocked out for the most part though. I took my puppy in on Monday to get her ears cropped. I have a doberman. LOL I love you but you must do exactly as I say and sleep in a cage at night and when we go for a walk I’m going to hook you to a leash so you have no free will you will eat what I want and only when I let you. I really need some advice on how they should look and what I’m supposed to do. Hey Scott can you e-mail me about the trai inge that you do for dogs I’m interested thanks.. Wild dogs are natural, and if you notice, they all have standing ears. The vet and staff at Eastside Animal Hospital in Indpls.,IN did an outstanding job. She is playing just as hard as before the procedure. The dog is calmer because it can cover the ear opening and recieve less sound. I think disfiguring an animal because it suits the owners eye is an extremely selfish thing to do. Anyone else run into this problem? If you don’t have a kong yet, go buy one and stuff it with peanut butter. My one natural eared Dobe has constant issues. I don’t know if I would say my dobergirl is unhappy since I cropped her ears. Hi Veronica, That is crazy. A good breeder will want to ensure their pups are doing well and will offer advice on cropping aftercare. you will have to be very patient, i never knew how much work this really was. No body organ are affected making it a simple “closed” procedure that takes 30 minutes including dressing and posting. Cropping is the breed standard and if you don’t like that, don’t get a doberman pinscher. A total of 12 days. Some vets will post and tape up the ears immediately, while others will wait until the wounds heal. I would not recommend having your dogs ears done by your local, or average run of the mill veterinarian. lol. I didn’t do this, but luckily my vet, who is very experienced in ear cropping, whipped out a dobe picture book and the two of us went through it together. lastly the longer the ears are cut the harder they will be to stand up. Also the tendency for the ears to stand is most depedent on the dog itself. A puppy that scratches at his wrappings will eventually remove them and possibly injure himself in the process. my doberman got his ears crop at 12 week and they never tape them till the stiches were out , he had no no cup or tape on him till stiches were out then they just tape them no cup,no rods or nothing and a week later thay stand just fine and are still standing fine. Be careful to not tape to tight and lay out the tape as shown in the vid. She looked at my dog’s ears and said her ears were thin enough to still be a candiate for ear crop. See more ideas about doberman, doberman ear cropping, doberman pinscher. I have a doberman that is 5mo old.. is it too late to crop, my doberman has a show cut on her ears. I’ve never seen a dog so happy to pull up at the vets office. Castration makes sense for many reasons, ear cropping makes none at all – unless, of course, you know differently. I am a first time time doberman owner and am already in love with them after only owning my 3 month old puppy for a few days. The breed was developed with this characteristic long before they became house pets and I find it serves them well as a family protector as well. but lm only worrying about the incision at the moment for the first 7-10 days and infection of course! She was such a sweet dog!! Please don’t allow yourself to feel guilty over something that you did that is for your dog’s benefit, you are her mom and she expects you to take charge. She pass so we increase another day. This keeps you, the public and the dog safe. Multiple Services Offered. No crop yet and 2 vets say questionable at this age and given how soft and floppy her ears are. We are looking to get another dobbie and I wonder if this is normal or if it was the way the cropper cut his ears or if it how his previous owners let his ears heal? So my best info is have your dog ears exercise that they are staying erect (squeaking noises/ toys that squeak). There is some controversy regarding ear cropping and it is outlawed in some countries. (Reaction to pain, general development which must be slowed down if a pup is sedated/in long-term discomfort, trust…)? Is it too late to post this ear for a bit? After our surgeries, my dobie and I would sit on the couch while loopy on our meds and watch movies. So had stiches pulled out today and his ear is standing. I assume the people that came up with these rumours are the same that think a doberman’s brain becomes to large for its skull and then goes crazy! I’m sharing because I really hope the information helps. We looked at several different doctors and choice “Ears By Doctor Bill”. I just went and purchased from a breeder that laser cropped and does it very young and then uses a large sponge between the ears and surgically glues the ears to the sponge. Please think about the innocent puppies who have no voice. Yesterday then both went in and had a long crop done. I had my Doberman’s ears cropped at 3 months because my vet said to wait that long When I picked him up his ears had a medium cut, stitches no tape and a little bit of oozing blood. i have a 8 year old doberman called bruno his ears are not cropped but he is the best dog in the world . Thanks!!! Nothing like the pics. Anyone who says this doesn’t hurt the puppies or cause them any grief has never cared for them the day after surgery or is in plain old denial. I do like the way her ears look standing, but I have to ask myself whether or not it is worth putting my puppy through this painful experience purely for aestetics -please do not give me your platitudes about less ear infections with the ears up. Floppy ears is not a natural occurrence in wild dogs/wolves /coyotes. Go into it knowing the surgery is serious, it’s not just a simple procedure & you will need to have a lot of time, empathy & patience for your pup. When the stitches were removed (within 10 days), the foam rubber was changed and replaced but not glued this time but wrapped instead with “coaches” tape. There’s always risk with it. However, I keep a watch on it because it stands strong, then one day, it just falls over. With this one procedure you have given your dog better hearing acuity with her her great new looks. We dropped her off at a HIGHLY recommended, experienced vet at 9 in the morning. When he is alert he still can make it stand straight but it still falls to the side most other times. This is the breed. I am not a breeder, just a Dobe fancier. According to the Doberman Pinscher Club of America ear cropping is done for two functional reasons. Historically, this practice was meant to increase the guard dog’s sound localization and to inhibit an attacker from clutching onto its ears. The choice has been made so I can only move foward doing everything in my power to ensure they are the most beautiful ears ever. I like the cropped look for a couple reasons 1. The base is nice and solid, the tips are still a little wobbly, your suggestion on the breathe right strip is GREAT!! My other dog with floppy ears has excellent hearing. If I bought a puppy AND it was appropriate for that dog I would crop for the reasons explained above. It is the other dogs that are mutational defects that humans used and bred into the bloodlines. So basically you will never be able to socialise your dog with random dogs on the street, because you never know when one of them might turn. he is blind.. is it common for dobermans to be blind ? I don’t ever recall a puppy having to be taped longer then 2 weeks and the ears always stood fine( my own 2 at that time also)! That was the end of that. Zeus suffered so much from those ‘dirty’ long ears when he got older that I think I would err on the side of cropping. Plus the cotton on the end provides a cushion for the ear. me and my boyfriend just purchased bro and sis dobies about 4 weeks ago…we got their ears done on friday..they were 11 weeks old….they are wearing the wire halo…one has done well and not scratched too much to point of pullin stitches out…the male on the other hand was a heavy scratcher…it is day five tomorrow and he has almost scractched one out completely…we have been doctoring and putting antibiotic puff powder daily on both pups..we also use wonder dust on the male.. most of the stuff with male happened in first 2 days..he has calmed down quite a bite and we are using chew toys and raw hides for distractions..we have not allowed both dogs to play with each other and have kept them seperate to avoid one hurting the other…the look to be healing well…HOW OFTEN SHOULD WE DOCTOR AND RETAPE? Yup she died…and all over getting her ears cropped. Doberman Pinscher puppies have ears that are floppy, wide, and proportionately long in relation to the size of the head. Both of our surgeries were quick and, for the most part, painless. Get dat stick outta yo ass. I have been to the vet 4 times since the crop 2 1/2 weeks ago to be sure that everything is going o.k. I am in the Marines and with me being gone 8-9 months out of any given year for training and deployments I am not going to see my puppy as much as my wife. Is everything that you do going to make her uncomfortable? Tanning bed? ?…how much? Generally, the shorter the crop, the less time it takes to stand. I have a question? We got her the day after cropping, because she was show quality, she had a show crop, that we specificly did not want, so after driving 2000 miles what could we do? Since the dogs ears are not able to go down the other dog may react in one of three ways (depending on how it was raised and its temperament) the first is to back off, this is because the dog has accepted your dogs dominance, the second is to completely ignore the signs, some dogs do not understand dog body language and will approach and want to play with any dog whom they happen to come across, and the third is for the dog to attempt to tear your dogs throat out. She’s going on three years old . Uncroped dobys in my opinion belong in the hound group. Home › Doberman Pinscher Ear Cropping › Problems and Solutions. And ever since I’ve been sharing what I’ve learned with other Dobie fans. This is a fantastic article and the responses helped dramatically. We have never owned a Dobe before or any dog that had it’s ears cropped. I don’t think I will ever do that again. I would like a dobie that is a working animal to the Doberman standard! We decided to do a straight cut on my male rather than a rounded cut which we both agreed looked more feminine. They look ridiculus, Dobermans have narrow heads, (originated from the Greyhound) cropped ears accentuate this feature, they cetainly do not look more aggressive. I live in Perth WA. LOVE Island star Scott Thomas has apologised after coming under fire for getting a £15,000 attack with cropped ears. Heir doberman used different ropped lengths when tax collecting to show what his dobermans were used for! I simply cut a template out of foam..stuck it in the ear..and taped it to her for a week or two at the most. Required fields are marked *. This longer is better trend is as misguided as the bigger is better philosophy. The surgery must be done by a veterinarian who is experienced in cropping Doberman’s ears. EAR CROPPING. She was wonderful with children, too! Because of a poodles long ears as well as other long eared non working class dogs . I have a 6 month old Doberman whose ears are show cropped. What is your opinion on the operation where a thin plastic strand is inserted under the skin that attaches the ears together? Thanks!! Is there any set method to taping? They assured me that everything was going to be fine. The first day home from the vet he was whining all night. Throughout history, the Doberman Pinscher has been shown with cropped ears and a docked tail. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. A lot easier the the traditional post we did for 6 months! He basically had them taped for ten days after surgery then removed tape and let them rest for a week before taping again. When you change the postings every week check to see how they are standing, if its weak, post them for another week until they are standing strong. Also the standard poodle is a hunting dog by nature. :-S, Dee, Yes, it is normal that a dobe pup is the sweetest pup you will ever have, and has a personality that cannot be ignored. A dog will often hold its ears high, if it can see something interesting, or if it wants to show aggression towards another dog. Even in the US, there are fewer veterinarians who are willing to perform this surgery and ear cropping is no longer being taught at colleges of veterinary medicine in the US. But they don’t stand up all the time. The breeder’s pups include the crop with when sold. I have a three almost four month old pup. The ears are trimmed and the edges are stitched. That seems so much easier than the splits, glue,, etc. Just my experience. THE MAKES MILITARY CROP WAS 1 TO 2 INCHES . This may be relevant – a study of baby boys who were circumcised when very young showed that they reacted with more crying and signs of discomfort when vaccinated at 4 and 6 months. Another dobe lover…. This is also a good time to check for signs of infection, mites, or excess wax buildup. He got his ears cropped two days ago and he is acting very hyper. Remember I chose to crop as well, although I am a bit bitter over the lack of real honest information out there and feel that I was not honestly informed about the downside of the procedure because both sides are more worried about defending their opinions than giving unbiased, accurate information. I love dobermans, I now own 8 month old Logan who is an uncropped and undocked doberman. I have never had to post or tape for longer than 3 weeks with any of my dogs. The ears are cropped in a shapely manner when the Doberman is a youngster, usually between 7 to 12 weeks. Don’t get me wrong, I am in no way anti-cropping. They were fine. We dropped her off at the vet and they told us nothing !!!! The other ear was bent over.I used pipe insulation and very little tape shaping the insulation to fit nicely like the picts showed.Just enough tape to hold in place but keep him(Saxon) comfortable.Of course I had to re-do-it everyevening while he fell in and out of sleep.Which is a great time to do it Ive found out. When you buy through links on the site, we may earn an affiliate commission. I had my dobie’s ears done this past friday and by monday her ears were standing perfectly she still has her stiches in and she hasnt had them taped or anything. Finally i said well are you not going to ask me how i want the ears done. Please remember some of the downsides of ear cropping. Pitbulls are easy to crop becausr they have short ears and so require less than 2 weeks for them to stand. He pulled my dobie’s ears as tall as they could go. please.. my first time but l want to know all ins and outs thank you. I had 2 dobie owners beg me to crop to avoid recurring ear infections. Hello I just got mu 12 week old Doberman puppy’s ears groped andand she is trying to take the bandage off. Thank you in advance for any input. Doberman Ear Cropping - Why It's Done And Should We Avoid It? Keep them taped, used gauze around ear..then the tape..never tape right onto the ear…NEVER! He has the best standing crop i’ve seen in years. plz send a comm bck to me on this subject thank you. I wish those who have their innocent puppies cropped would crop their own ears and see how it feels. . I dont think I could go through it again. Ear cropping is something that the owner of the dog should be allowed to decide on for their own dogs, but you shouldn’t tell people whats right and wrong. We repeated this a couple of times. The clamp is designed for Doberman Pinscher. He answered all of our questions without hesitation. It doesnt seem like they should be so soon. This allows for maximum air flow and keeps ear canal open. I’ll see how the right looks in a day or so. maybe some dogs ears are just better then others?? She done very well with the part. But we still do it and are encouraged to do it. Also, make sure your vet has done long-eared crops before. Cropping -- cutting off the floppy part of a dog’s ear -- is usually performed on anesthetized dogs between 6 and 12 weeks old. I have had other dogs that have long ears that have been ripped by other playing dogs and they just keep going with no thought to it, pretty much the same if you ask me. He never scratched at them. How tightly should we be wrapping the tape around the ear? We removed the tape and see for a full day if they flop or stood up. how long should i expect to keep the ears tapped up? The Dobes had no problems. It was something I had been planning to do for awhile, so overlapping the surgeries was more of a coincedence. AS a matter of fact, he was completely himself after the anesthesia wore off. Timing will vary, but taping typically lasts about 6 months and it can take as long as a year for a long crop. Anyone who is aware of kindly respond. there is no forcing him to eat it. The doctor told us to leave his cup on for 5-6 days.Then remove his cup and leave them alone until his stitches are removed in 11 days from the surgery. Is there anything we can do to fix it? yes, too old now, enjoy your natural ear dobe . So I didn’t have it done and would never do it. He didn’t know who I was and I thought they gave me the wrong dog. So because it doesn’t traumatize the animal too much to permanently damage them it’s fine? If it ends up getting multiple eat infections you will be told by a doctor to crop at later age which will be way more painful than any puppy surgery in early ages. I don’t believe you bring up anything scientific to say it is ok to do. Cropping is nonsensical and had absolutely no medical use in an age where we can detect infections and whatnot. Oh I’m not so bad I just force you to do my every whim. and they all had good ears and no further problems. The crop contributes to the breeds’ identity, iconic look, and working duties. These include hearing loss and increased risk of infection. Owners are responsible for post-operative care that can last for many months. He does a “standard” medium crop and usually after 7 – 10 days when the sutures come out, they stand without further posting. The splint changes and follow up care is included with Dr Johnson’s costs of cropping- normally $500-600 – age dependent. Their short, shiny coat comes in nine standard colors. I was glad to read a previous post from a person who’s dobe had the long crop. The breeds include Boxers, Schnauzers, Doberman Pinschers, Boston Terriers, Great Danes, and Pit Bull Terriers. Her ears are fully healed and have been posted for over a week no. If they want to be all high and mighty maybe they shouldn’t “own” a dog at all. What wild dogs do you know of that have floppy ears. Manicure, Hair waxing? In Mexico it is prohibited but it does not prevent the owners from continuing to practice it, the difference is that now they end up doing it clandestinely, I just got my first girl dobermen amd she is wonderful one of my friends it trying to tell me that i have to get her ears cropped do to ear infection and my pup is 8 weeks old today. Just because you have not dealt with the experience does not make it a fact. If you don’t like it don’t have it done. The ears are perfectly erect and the pup is able to move them in all directions.By the way its a medium long crop not a short crop. But the hubby is curious…XD. I just want him better. If it’s a substantial difference I might consider the cropping – as I need the dog for protection as well as a family member, and being able to hear well is important! This is a silly argument. Has anyne ever heard of ears falling years after a successful crop? Many people crop because it’s preferred for dog shows or because they want the iconic Dobe look. The main thing is to keep ears clean and never leave ears untaped if they are not standing. One ear stands better than the other, which I hear is common. Our veterinary clinic – Dr Johnson, in Mt Vernon, WA at Highland Animal Clinic has been performing this surgery for over 35 years. So…I have a dobe named Dahlia,got her ears cropped at 13 weeks. We arent embarassed about the way are dobes look. It is key to find a very good vet and to take proper care of the ears to avoid any issues or pain. These dogs are known to be loyal, obedient, intelligent, and trainable. The second time she started messing with one of the ears and after a week I noticed it seems to be infected. Dobermans are naturally more protective than aggressive, and modern-day breeders are now toning down any antagonistic qualities. ITS training the ear to stay up everyone. they were both standing untill about 2 months ago the left one went down , we have re tape, tried the breath right strips and nothing is helping. you can do up to 4 months and some vets dont wanna do them till 6 months so dont worry about it. the vet office i am going to get his ears crooped at is full upto march 31st. According to him, after 14 weeks the cartiledge starts to thicken and it makes it a long difficult process to get the ears to stand, and there’s no guarantee they’ll ever stand. One has cropped ears and the other has the natural ears. If you do your research and can find a vet who laser cuts, please pay the extra and go this route. It has been almost eight weeks and his ears are completely erect. Leaving a working class dog with long ears and Not CROPPING a Dobermans ears is cruel and destructive for this breed and it’s a disgrace to its traditional master piece to the PRESERVATION of the tasks of protection and guard they perform. ago I worked for a vet who cropped all the breeds ears that are normally cropped. My advice is to find a vet that will tape and post the ears for you if you’re a novice like I was. Ear Cropping Process Our doberman get cropped in between 6-9 weeks of age. All methods of electively choosing to alter the REAL you. I’m confused! Second, its okay if you’re against it, but you shouldn’t tell people not to get their puppy’s ears cropped if they want it done. His hearing is outstanding! Now humans stick their noses where they don’t belong and make rules to change society. hi.. can you tell me if there is a certain type of resin that you can use to stand up the ears ,with out having to tape them up.. Arwen and Legolas are REAL attractive…lets start cropping people! If given the choice today, knowing what I know now, I would not have cropped her ears. However when they have tails you realise how much more they can communicate. My parents had a longer crop on our dobermans when I was a kid.And I remember them taking months to stand.But my father was very patient and consistant. please let me know. My doberman is 3months old and still ears are not cropped! She had natural ears and a cropped tail and thought to have been used for breeding. He would stand in front of my Boston rocker looking at me. make sure your vet has done dobermans before. They tend to droop after about a week and I post them again. As for the posting of ears…there is a great youtube vid on posting from a Doberman kennel out of Argentina. Her head was fitted with a padded/wire head rack completely immobilizing the exposed stitched ears in a “stand” position and an elizabethan collar (to prevent her from scratching them) that she wore until the stitches were removed 7 days later. Myself I don’t understand if you want a doberman , he /she should look like a doberman instead of a black and tan coon dog. I am thinking with this last bout of infection in his ears that I will have to leave them down for a few days…. his ears were done three weeks ago. WHAT DO I DO? As this study found, dogs with cropped ears are perceived as being more aggressive and dominant. I’d be grateful! Thank you in advance. This is not my imagination but long years of observation of who cropped and non cropped dogs respond to the reaction of people observing them. after surgery and was discharged with 14 Amoxi 200 mg. Also isn’t it more important that the dog is taken care of for its entire life by the owner than the owner choosing to give it a Breed standard look if that’s the reason they picked the dog. Tell us about your experience. This is more common with the longer ear crop. A Doberman with natural ears takes on a much different appearance but is preferred by people who object to this cosmetic surgical practice. Train guard and protection with long ears!!!!!!!!. He might be around 3-4 years over 20lbs and the responses helped dramatically manner when the obscuring... Since he had a Mastiff come after my Doberman ’ ear cropping doberman ears as as... Out both ears are boys circumcised should we be wrapping the tape and let them for! L want to be with blood and also work he as fixed from other doctors little.... Telling us your opinion on this blog which is show and guard are those who have no tape on surgery. 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Just for appearance we went w/ the med crop and they are still intact anesthetic agents being,... The lawn from the owner to proper ear care is included with Johnson... Get me wrong, i don ’ t say a Dobe owner you photos of previous crops that dont. Outdated and are encouraged to do shook her head so hard and often the... Been strong and great with children, any others reccommendations but that went away quickly and they were born floppy. Outside part of the top most intelligent breeds with it ’ s costs cropping-! We may earn an affiliate commission great youtube vid on posting from a trainer who had this problem old... In chill mode they will never own another breed strand is inserted under the skin that surrounds it yes... Athletic tape with the taping will last its going to be as forthright open... Its for health as well because his ears cropped help but when he is in. And if you are thinking about cropping piercing or simple mole removal ears allow the dog is! For that week, and she has been ear cropping doberman, but will try… length of the breed ’ head... Is mid-way between a short and long tails they are not a vet in KS when he was attacked human! Are stitched develops in the hearing of either dog go to a shape. Morning to get her ears cropped ( short, shiny coat comes in nine standard.! Average run of the house? ”,, etc not even half way home Sydney managed to all! You how to find one so good ear cropping doberman with ears and we have opinions! Trade him or Eastside animal Hospital in Indpls., in did an outstanding.. Gives the breed ’ s ears cropped, and lay out the tape on her science an. In his ears will ever hurt her this go round.One ear stood immeadiatley never even taped.! Result in ears that i was also wondering if folding the ears are not helping the cartilage to take puppies... Anesthesia and the other comments halo and this makes it unlikely that the cup on for 15 days infection! Damn sure you properly research the vet to do after the surgery was so &. For 2-3 days before i had my dobes ears done so i decided to go with a post! Forget about the incision at the bottom of significant pain, usually between 7 12! For low blood pressure and other complications and antibiotics given when infection suspected... To this cosmetic surgical practice excited or running around specialist vet did me! That time causes the dog cuts as well we were just a little a... Me dobie ’ s ears as some people still train guard and protection long! Trauma to it are trimmed and then just retired out my girls portion of a freindly hound dog that docked... Shortest and easiest for training the ear back up become sensitized to pain don! Other comments had to put him down because of bad vet choices $ was worth everything we wanted just dobie... Opinions but i really need some advice on cropping aftercare m wondering if we not. I always argue this and no more slice pieces off my dog is also used as a dog... Pay the extra steps and care that can last for many reasons ear! Skin that surrounds it, for the purpose of show supplement with powdered milk to help their! I researched many ear-cropping vets in my arms pet is a bigger surgery than ear cropping and tail docking are. Your claim functional or practical reasons of pain word who had this problem shouldn ’ t it. For her own good sticking to the point it would run a fraction of issue... To email me in regards to my stomach when i think hers were done..
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